- 1 SURA 27 AND MATHEMATICAL MIRACLE OF QURAN AN INTRODUCTION
- 1.1 Miracle of 19 in Quranic Initialed Suras: Interlocking Suras 19, 20, 26, 27 & 28
- 1.2 Discussions on Wikipedia Talk Page in support of Mathematical Miracle of Quran based on the number 19
- 1.2.1 The supporting, verifying, references to include the article connecting Sura 27 and other interlocking Suras on Wikipedia page
- 1.2.2 The article got deleted by one of the editors at Wikipedia
- 1.2.3 Asking why the article got deleted
- 1.2.4 This editor has reservations with the numbers while suggesting it to go on the Arabic Wikipedia so that experts can comment
- 1.2.5 Being expert in Arabic or any other language does not make them expert in Maths as well and knowing Arabic does not qualify them to be expert in understanding the Mathematical Miracle of Quran that is based on the number 19
- 1.2.6 Knowing Arabic does not make anyone understand the Maths Miracle of Quran (continued)
- 1.2.7 For Mathematical Miracle of Quran there is no citation by likes of Tabari, Qurtubi or Jalalayn!!!
- 1.2.8 Citing Dr Khalifa's work as the reliable source
- 1.2.9 Now they wanted the article on the different page of the Wikipedia
- 1.2.10 Why Mathematical Structure for the Initialed suras cannot be included on Muqatta'at Page
- 1.2.11 Editors going silent
- 1.2.12 Reminder 1
- 1.2.13 Reminder 2
- 1.2.14 Reminder 3
- 1.2.15 Reminder 4
- 1.2.16 One editors won't object
- 1.2.17 The article should be small
- 1.2.18 Incorporating the suggestions and reservations by proposing a new paragraph
- 1.2.19 Getting the Editor to arrive at the consensus
SURA 27 AND MATHEMATICAL MIRACLE OF QURAN AN INTRODUCTION
The mathematical structure behind the initials is only a glimpse of the Miracle in Quran. The mathematical pattern based on the number 19 is beyond human capabilities, the awesomeness of the Miracle is described by Quran as One of the Great Miracles [74:35].
In order to support this awesomeness following are the proceedings on the talk page of the Wikipedia for the article.
Miracle of 19 in Quranic Initialed Suras: Interlocking Suras 19, 20, 26, 27 & 28
Of the 29 Quran Suras (of the 114) that have verse 1 as Quranic initials (Muqattat), Sura 19, Sura 20, Sura 26, Sura 27 and Sura 28 which are prefixed with H. (ه), T.H. (Ta Ha)(طه ), T.S. (Ta Seen)(طس ), & T.S.M. (Ta Seen Mim)(طسم ) have an intricate interlocking relationship that links these overlapping Quranic Initials to produce a total that is a multiple of 19. The initial “H.” is found in Suras 19 and 20. The initials “T.H.” prefix Sura 20. The initials “T.S.” are found in Sura 27, while the initials “T.S.M.” prefix its surrounding Suras 26 & 28.
It can be noted that the longer, more complex, interlocking and overlapping initials are found in the suras where uncommonly powerful miracles are narrated. For example, the virgin birth of Jesus is given in Sura 19, which is prefixed with the longest set of initials, K.H.Y.`A.S.
The interlocking initials “H.,” “T.H.,” “T.S.,” and “T.S.M.” prefix suras describing the miracles of Moses, Jesus, and the uncommon occurrences surrounding Solomon and his jinns. God thus provides stronger evidence to support stronger miracles. The frequencies of occurrence of these initials are presented in Table below.
Table: Occurence of the Quranic Initials "H.," "T.H.," "T.S. ", and "T.S.M." in Their Suras
|Sura||Frequency of "H"||Frequency of "T"||Frequency of "S"||Frequency of "M"|
Discussions on Wikipedia Talk Page in support of Mathematical Miracle of Quran based on the number 19
The supporting, verifying, references to include the article connecting Sura 27 and other interlocking Suras on Wikipedia page
In order to support the above fact please see the explanations below:
(1) The Miracle of 19: unveiled by Rashad Khalifa Ph.D. in the Quran revealed by God to last Prophet Muhammad is not an original research. This is proven for example by Appendix 1 of the Authorized English Version translated from the Original by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. copyright © Islamic Productions and http://www.19miracle.org/math-miracle-of-quran/.
Explanation: (a) It is based on the widely accepted Quran text by Tanzil.net
(b) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa states Khalifa's first publicized report in the Arab world appeared in the Egyptian magazine Akher Sa'a, in January, 1973. Updates of his research were subsequently published by the same magazine later that year and again in 1975: • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, January 24, 1973. • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, November 28, 1973. • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, December 31, 1975.
(c ) Book written by Cesar Adib Majul, Ph.D., Former Dean, Institute of Islamic Studies, University of the Philippines regarding the 19 based Mathematical Structure of Quran:http://books.google.com/books/about/The_names_of_Allah_in_relation_to_the_ma.html?id=pntCAAAACAAJ and https://catalog.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=973897&DB=local and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Adib_Majul
(3) The fact is based on data accepted by main stream & majority of Shia and Sunni Muslims worldwide.
Explanation: (a) These are based on independent, verifiable, reliable, undisputed Quran data, reference texts commonly accepted by those in control of web sites and Quran printings etc. of Sunnis and Shias too, and widely used by “mainstream” Muslims worldwide - The King Fahd Press based Arabic Quran by www.tanzil.net is also used by main stream Shia sect http://quran.al-islam.org/ - we see following statement made for the Quranic initials in Sura 2 verse 1.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:1] Many interpretations have been forwarded and manipulated by some commentators, but they are all based upon conjecture, devoid of any definite authority. According to the holy Imams these letters are a means of reaching the higher realms of true knowledge, available in the verses of the Quran, but the domain of sublime confidences are reserved only for the chosen representatives of Allah.
(b) The Structure of 19 in Quran is one of the modules (Module VI page 13 -14) taught at The University of Calicut, Kerala, India http://www.universityofcalicut.info/syl/Islamic.pdf
(4) The neutral point of view,
The Quran as we all (muslims, submitters to God) know is the unifying factor for moderate ... Islam (Submission to God); therefore to minimize the extremists and sectarian viewpoints (which would be danger to world peace), we trust Wikipedia would not wish to restrict freedom of information etc., of modern, logical & scientific information to the Muslims – for example (per (3) (b) above), 19 based structure in Quran is being taught, obviously to “Mainstream” Muslim and even non-Muslims within Islamic History. Thus with due respect I submit that the modern facts under discussion are not a matter of any issues or view points or ideas. India is the largest democracy in the World, a Secular Country, and its Kerala State give due Constitutional recognition to various religions to the extent that this relation between 19 and Quran is taught at the University of Calicut, Kerala, mentioned above.
The article got deleted by one of the editors at Wikipedia
Asking why the article got deleted
Answer: Peace, Sir/ Madam I see that you removed the section from the article, the structure of 19 within this Sura is part of the Sura and about the structure within the Sura. May I request that if there are any concerns we can address them on the talk page of the article and I God Willing get the chance to show that whatever was put up is from a reliable source and very much relevant to the article on the page. Peace 15:23, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
This editor has reservations with the numbers while suggesting it to go on the Arabic Wikipedia so that experts can comment
Question: While I do not question the authenticity of your sources, or the belief in the miracle, I do question the relevancy of the item to the topic itself. When I went to the article the first, time, I found an article not about a Sura but an article about a miracle about numbers, with little relation to the topic in question, that is, Sura 27, An-Naml, "The Ants". Additionally, I see nothing on the Arabic Wikipedia article here: ar:سورة النمل about this miracle, and given that Arabic is the original language of the Quran, and that primary sources regarding the Quran are in Arabic, I fully expect this relevant information to be accepted on the Arabic Wikipedia first and foremost, given that more Quranic experts speak Arabic before English. Yours very truly, 17:36, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Being expert in Arabic or any other language does not make them expert in Maths as well and knowing Arabic does not qualify them to be expert in understanding the Mathematical Miracle of Quran that is based on the number 19
Answer: Peace, Sura 27 referred as An-Naml begins with initials "T" and "S" an equivalent of Arabic Ta and Seen. Its a process of simple verification of counting the occurrences of "T" and "S" within this chapter, since this chapter begins with these initials it is very much necessary to show why these initials are deliberately placed at the beginning of this Sura and other chapters like these, while we do this we are explaining the meaning of these initials in mathematical terms and mathematics is an exact science and a best language to explain things, mathematics removes all doubts and leaves no room for any opinions. This structure as you may know is based on the number 19 and is consistent throughout the Quran.
I am of the impression that one need not be an expert to contribute to Wikipedia otherwise Wikipedia would not be what it is today. Its contributors like you and me keep it going I feel. I am not sure whether an expert in Arabic would make a person expert also to know and under mathematics. This is true for any other language. Knowing Quran in Arabic also does not make one expert in mathematics either. One need to know maths to understand maths. Since these initials at the beginning of the Sura 27 has mathematical explanation so be it. If mathematics is not to be used for explaining verses of the Quran on Wikipedia then all the subjects like Engineering, Astronomy would not find place here either.
Every contributor on the Wikipedia contributes based on his or her expertise or at the least the subject that impresses him or her and wishes the world to know by gathering and presenting the BEST reliable source. Would this approach of asking the article to be put up on another language site first then to appear on the English Wikipedia later make a genuine contributor from contributing?
I think by God’s Grace I am good enough to present this topic on Wikipedia and I do strive to present quality information.
Since this sura has initials that are similar to other Suras (chapters) and are interwoven with other chapters to form a structure based on 19 there is no other way to show the relevance other than showing them on the table format which is what I had done. If you are not comfortable with the tables then I can put them in the commentary format God Willing. I would therefore request you to restore the section or if there are still concerns I will try my best in all possible ways God Willing to address them. Peace 17:14, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Knowing Arabic does not make anyone understand the Maths Miracle of Quran (continued)
Answer (contd): Peace, God willing, I further wish to submit for your kind consideration and comment please -- It seems an undue burden to require any discussion about Quran by English speakers to first be in Arabic. Since our discussion here is not about subtle meaning of the Arabic or linguistic/semantic Arabic scholarly work, rather the mathematical structure of Quran--which is independent of any language, we should be open to presenting this in any Wikipedia language whether English, Spanish, French, German, Arabic, etc. Otherwise, a strict language requirement would be require for example -- discussion of Galileo's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo) work to first be approved by the Italian Wikipedia or Wagner's work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner) first to go through German wikipedia. Only then would English readers be able to learn about it. That does seem undue burden to me. Peace, 01:52, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
For Mathematical Miracle of Quran there is no citation by likes of Tabari, Qurtubi or Jalalayn!!!
Question: Hi ******, it is true that you should be bold in editing Wikipedia, however, articles in Wikipedia have certain universal rules that apply to all of them, and all content that does not follow these rules can be deleted by another user. Two important rules are no original research and verifiability. I invite you to read those carefully, as your contributions to the article ***** deleted does not conform with either. I am very familiar with the subject matter of your edits, and you have not cited any of the popular Arabic Tafseer (like Tabari, Qurtubi or Jalalayn ) nor English literature around the explanation of Quaran (like Maududi or Ahmed Raza Khan), which classifies your work as original research (or at least only verifiable through the site you linked that does not meet our trusted sources policy). 04:57, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Citing Dr Khalifa's work as the reliable source
Answer: Peace ****** and *****, Yes I am aware of the links thanks, those requirements are but logical I agree, my posting is NOT an original research and is in fact 100% verifiable, the links I had used are the reproduction of the sources that I am referring below. I do realize that I should have done this before so my apologies there, I was probably being lost in trying to make the article over verifiable for readers, while missing what Wikipedia required. The sources are,
1. Quran: Visual Presentation of the Miracle by Rashad Khalifa, Page 162, ISBN 0-934894-30-2, Library of Congress Card No. 82-083551. http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/vp/fact37.pdf
2. Quran: The Final Testament by Rashad Khalifa Ph. D, Appendix 1, ISBN 978-1-890825-00-3, Library of Congress control number: 2007938221, http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1verify.html
3. Reference to both these sources above with excerpts occur in "Mission to America", Chapter 6 and Appendix 2, by Yvonne Yazbeck Haddad and lane Idleman Smith, University Press of Florida, 1993, ISBN-10: 0813012163, ISBN-13: 978-0813012162, http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=23405319
I propose to remove all the links that I have included in my last post and have the article with the above references and links God Willing. Trust the above will be acceptable to you and ***** to restore the section. Peace 18:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Now they wanted the article on the different page of the Wikipedia
Question: I still disagree with you.
- The subject is completely covered in Muqatta'at. If you think it is inadequate, you can add your contributions there.
- The wording of the paragraph you pasted in the Sura article was POV, using words such as 'miracle' etc.
You may want to add a reference to the Muqatta'at article if you need to, but no more than that is needed, certainly not a complete paragraph. 05:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Why Mathematical Structure for the Initialed suras cannot be included on Muqatta'at Page
Answer: Peace ***** and *****, will address to your concerns point wise God Willing.
1. Muqatta’at page on the Wikipedia is a broader subject one cannot describe even in the most concise form the various facets to the article, it is like describing all the 114 suras of the Quran on Sura page alone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura obviously there are so many facets to each Suras of the Quran it is but logical to have separate page for each 114 suras in the Quran as we have on Wikipedia. Similarly Muqatta’at is a broader topic one cannot detail all the facets of all the Suras with Muqatta’at within Muqatta’at page alone, it makes sense to see why Wikipedia has a page on United States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states and a page on list of states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states#Lists and an independent page for state called Arizona for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona. It would not make sense to write about the state Arizona on “United States” page or even on the “List of US States” either.
Secondly the structure of 19 in Quran is not limited to Suras with Muqatta’at alone - the structure of 19 is widespread to other facets of the Quran; and writing there, aspects about the structure 19 that are not relevant to Muqatta’at, would not be logical … nor, I believe, acceptable to Wikipedia. Therefore the structure of 19 I believe should be included in the individual Sura pages that it is relevant to; and I request you to reconsider your stand regarding placing this article on the Muqatta’at page.
2. POV: Agree with your point, in order to fulfil this requirement could we have a statement like “The claims of Rashad Khalifa were initially accepted by the Muslim world but were later rejected owing to his interpretation of the Quran”. The reference for this statement can be taken from the book “Mission to America” that I referred to in my last post. However I am comfortable you framing a phrase addressing this point. "Mission to America", by Yvonne Yazbeck Haddad and lane Idleman Smith, University Press of Florida, 1993, ISBN-10: 0813012163, ISBN-13: 978-0813012162, http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=23405319
With regards to the use of word “Miracle” could we use word “Code” instead.
3. “A full paragraph”: I agree that the article should be straight, short and sweet for readers without compromising the quality of the information; this may or may not be a full paragraph. I feel we should give due importance to the information (that meets all the criteria of Wikipedia) rather than the size of the information. Even the size of the paragraph is subjective though. Peace
The above is the reproduction of the discussion on the Wikipedia talk for Sura 27 article. 05:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Editors going silent
Peace, Sir may I request your reply on the post that I have on the talk page of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:An-Naml. Peace DukhanSmoke, 14:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Peace, have put up a suggestion on the talk page, would be great if you could have a look and comment please before I take it to the main article. Thanks, Peace DukhanSmoke, 00:51, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Peace Sir, I will wait till you get time to see the proposal, it is not correct putting up things on the main page without agreeing with the editor with whom the article has been discussed. Thank you and Peace DukhanSmoke, 00:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Peace, Sir, I presume you do not have any further reservations me putting up the article on the main page of Sura 27. Peace. DukhanSmoke 09:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Peace, Sir, Trying to maintain the Wikipedia decorum alive by coming to a mutual agreement before posting the article on the main page, may I request you again to provide your comments for the article that I intend posting. Peace DukhanSmoke, 16:26, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
One editors won't object
This is at least not POV, but IMHO still irrelevant and hard to understand. If you feel you need to put in there I won't object, I will leave it to other people to assess its value. 04:26, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
The article should be small
- I still find it incredibly off-topic. Even if that were not an issue, this paragraph is longer than the rest of the article. If the topic is worthy of an article maybe it should have one of its own and a small mention here, but that's really up to community consensus. 04:53, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Incorporating the suggestions and reservations by proposing a new paragraph
Peace ***** & *****, first of all thanks for replying. God Willing I will not tire showing what I see as appropriate. The initials or Muqatta’at ARE part of the Sura (T.S. is word 1, verse 1 of Sura 27 http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27&verse=1) And many of the translators like Yusuf Ali, Shakir Ali, Sher Ali and Tanzil.net the widely used Arabic text of the Quran translate the Arabic word “ayaatu” as “verse” http://www.quranbrowser.org/ therefore it is but logical in my opinion and practical to have it on the individual Sura pages. The opinion of having the information on this page or not is a matter of POV as ****** stated. Going forward with ******’s reservation about the length of the paragraph, I God willing after shortening the paragraph propose following, and trust that it is acceptable for me uploading it to the main page, however if you still feel there are reservations we can discuss God willing.
"Sura 27 is prefixed with initials T.S. (Ta Seen)(طس ) which form an intricate interlocking relationship that links the overlapping Quranic initials of Sura 19, Sura 20, Sura 26 and Sura 28 to produce a total that is multiple of 19. The initial “H.” is found in Suras 19 and 20. The initials “T.H.” prefix Sura 20, while the initials “T.S.M.” prefix its (Sura 27) surrounding Suras 26 & 28. The total frequency of occurrence all these initials within these suras is 1767 = 19 x 93. This and similar mathematical structures based on the number 19 in Quran was discovered by Rashad Khalifa, the findings were initially well received by the Muslim world but were later rejected owing to his interpretation of the Quran."
Peace, DukhanSmoke, 04:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC
Getting the Editor to arrive at the consensus
Peace ****, just one more probably the final request for your comments on the paragraph that I have shortened based on your reservation. If it is OK for you now. Peace DukhanSmoke 16:42, 1 April 2012 (UTC))
- Peace, can I consider your no reply as no objection to the paragraph that I intend putting on the main article page of Sura 27 God Willing. Peace DukhanSmoke 04:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC))
- No, my no reply means that I have other things that must occupy my time. Why are you in such a hurry? 05:11, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Peace, I reflected and appreicate your reply. Thanks. I patiently reminded for 8 days in March 2012 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:An-Naml & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Shipmaster before getting reply. So God Willing, will again patiently remind till Wikipedia replies and sincerely strive to meet further requirement if any. Peace. Thanks for time. DukhanSmoke 02:54, 7 April 2012 (UTC))
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